Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Defensive carry handguns.
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Nathan
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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby Nathan » Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:05 pm

Ohio9 wrote:I've always found it surprising that so many instructors do this. Why start someone on a much lighter caliber then what they should be using in their carry guns
I stated:
Nathan wrote:I start all students new to shooting on .22LR. This enables them to learn the principles of shooting without having to overcome fear of recoil.
I honestly don't know how to explain it any better. When someone is new to shooting they are learning the fundamentals that will apply across all calibers. They are learning sight picture, sight alignment, trigger control and other basic fundamentals of shooting. Once learned properly, those skills are applied while learning to control recoil. A student cannot concentrate properly on basic fundamentals while flinching due to anticipating recoil. Starting on the .22LR allows them proper focus on fundamentals until those fundamentals become second nature and after that point you can teach them to manage recoil. Too much at once in a beginner can be overwhelming making it more difficult to master anything important.
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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby hkguy » Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:13 pm

Its simple Ohio, nathan said basically what i meant to. the purpose of starting with a .22 is two fold, 1) it is a great round to teach the fundamentals i.e. sight picture, grip, breathing, and follow through. IF there are major errors in shooting technique, they become apparent and corrective feedback can be given. 2) the soft recoil makes shooting FUN! after all, what I am trying to do is create interest after they leave the range.

IF the student associates their experience as a FUN they are more likely to shoot again. As comfort with the firearms and confidence with them builds, they will move onto service calibers. for the people i take out that are new i start them off with my buckmark, then move them to my GP100 shooting soft .38's (the recoil is nearly identical to my buckmark) after that its either to my 9mm 1911 (42.9 oz) or my USPc 9. after shooting the 9mm i let them pick and choose what to shoot at their own comfort level. I will bring my Jframe to show them and explain recoil differences between full size guns and compact/sub compact.
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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby Gunsmith » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:15 pm

All guns are different on recoil. My Mauser 763 is like a 22, my Browning HP is soft, my FN 308 is nothing, but my BAR 300 Mag is a bear. I like Nathan's approach. Too many women are sold a 'Bill of goods' and wind up not shooting, because the gun is too hot.

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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby mattinglyt » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:59 pm

Sorry, I didn't bother to read all the comments, but I did notice you said something about 70 rds with a snub in practice.

Something I wish more people would realize, is you don't have to overshoot on practices. 20 rds of good practice is more than enough. After that you falter on bad judgment and pain. Stop when you're still good.

I shoot my SW 340PD with 158 grain 357mag, 10 rds at a time in practice. It's a hand cannon, I'm not hurt by the recoil, but there's no reason for me to over do it and teach myself bad habits.
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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby Ohio9 » Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:22 pm

mattinglyt wrote:Something I wish more people would realize, is you don't have to overshoot on practices. 20 rds of good practice is more than enough. After that you falter on bad judgment and pain. Stop when you're still good.


Again, range fees are not cheap. If I'm going to pay a range fee, I insist on getting my money's worth. It's not worth a car trip and a range fee just to fire 20 rounds. 100 rounds is a reasonable minimum for handgun, I think. I wouldn't even consider 20 to be a proper minimum for a shotgun.

Nathan wrote:When someone is new to shooting they are learning the fundamentals that will apply across all calibers.


I get it. Like I said, I just don't see any reason to start with a small caliber and service calibers like the 9mm, which doesn't have much recoil and gets someone to learn the fundementals with an ammo type closer to what they should be carrying. I am very glad I first learned how to shoot on the 9mm, and feel my initial training would not have been as effective with a .22. But that's just me. If starting with a .22 satisfies your students, then by all means keep it up.

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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby Nathan » Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:33 pm

Ohio9 wrote:I just don't see any reason to start with a small caliber and service calibers like the 9mm
I'm failing to understand how you still don't see any reason. A 9mm has soft recoil, but a .22 has none (essentially) thus allowing students to focus solely on shooting fundamentals. I'm not referencing teaching people who already have experience; I'm referencing absolute noobs, and in this case we're specifically talking about women noobs. Many students go into this afraid of guns. You want them to be as comfortable as possible. The .22LR allows them to enjoy the experience without anticipating recoil.

Are you limited to taking one gun at a time to the range? Take your snubbie and shoot it a few times, then transition over to another gun. A snubbie requires very little practice anyway since its for very close shots.
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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby Ohio9 » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:00 pm

Yes I know what you mean. I was 23 when I first fired a gun, so I remember quite well what being a noob is like. As I explained, I'm glad I started out on the 9mm because I feel it's better to learn the fundamentals of shooting with a proper "defensive" caliber. That better prepared me for the more advanced aspects, because I didn't have to learn them and get used to stronger recoil at the same time. Again I'm not telling you how to teach, just explaining personal preference. Also, I have taught several noobs how to shoot (some of whom were women and a bit scared of guns) and starting with the 9mm did not cause any problems.

No, there is no limit to the number of guns I can bring to the range I use. Using one gun per trip is just personal preference, primarily because that saves a lot of time afterwords by not having to strip and clean different guns after I get back.

Also, my last range trip was the first time I had brought my LCRx out for shooting. So I really wanted to focus on shooting nothing but that.

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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby deadguy » Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:48 am

The women i have introduced to shooting all preferred the heavier pistols (S&W 457 and 1911s) with 230 grain .45 over the airweight jframe with soft .38sp rounds in it.

I don't practice with my snubbie as much as i should. The carry loads i use are brutal (158gr. XTP). However, i don't anticipate feeling the recoil if i have to use it. And i most certainly won't rely on it for a distance shot in SD.

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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby Pickwick » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:35 am

This is an old argument. For most of us guys that grew up in the South, a .22 was our first rifle and, for many, our first handgun. Mine was a Marlin 39A, and I first used it to kill rats (big suckers) around my Dad's chicken houses. Dad was a WW II 2nd Inf. Div.vet and he taught me how to shoot. I also squirrel hunted with it and took it everywhere fishing, walking the RR tracks by the river, etc. I plinked at everything. When he bought me my first deer rifle, a Marlin 336 30/30 which I still shoot, he said, "this will be just like your .22 except it will kick a bit. Just hold it tight and do everything else like I showed you." I killed my first deer 2 weeks later... a 50 yd. shot with iron sights. I was a cinch for the HS rifle team. Anyway, I think as a confidence builder and sight picture training a .22 is fine, rifle or handgun.

BTW, that was in the early '60's. My best friend and I, at 11 years old, could pack a sack lunch, canteens, and take our .22's and walk through the neighborhood, down the main drag to the river bridge, go down and walk the tracks shooting all day by the train yard and nobody thought anything of it. Now days, if they saw two kids walking with .22's, they'd call the damn SWAT team.

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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby Ohio9 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:26 am

deadguy wrote:
I don't practice with my snubbie as much as i should. The carry loads i use are brutal (158gr. XTP). However, i don't anticipate feeling the recoil if i have to use it. And i most certainly won't rely on it for a distance shot in SD.


No, the pain in your hand from recoil won't be a factor in a defensive shooting, but the lack of practice could be. If a gun you carry for self defense is so painful to use that one is unable to practice with it often, that's a serious problem.

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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby Pickwick » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:01 am

Shoot what you carry; carry what you shoot.

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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby mattinglyt » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:40 pm

But are you really getting your money's worth if you keep practicing past when the pain starts and you learn bad behavior for the next 80 or so rounds?

Seems counterproductive to me
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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby Ohio9 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:03 pm

Well this is the first time I've ever had my hand torn up while shooting before. 100 rounds has never been a problem with any other guns. My S&W 36 makes my hand sore, but nothing serious. My Remington 870 makes my shoulder sore, but nothing too bad there either, and my new Knox Compstock has helped reduce that issue a great deal.

But yeah, looks like I might have to stop short of 100 rounds with my LCRx and that's a real shame. You would think such an advanced and modern revolver would be more comfortable to shoot then a revolver first produced in 1951 (The S&W 36), not less.

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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby hkguy » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:11 pm

Ohio9 wrote:
But yeah, looks like I might have to stop short of 100 rounds with my LCRx and that's a real shame. You would think such an advanced and modern revolver would be more comfortable to shoot then a revolver first produced in 1951 (The S&W 36), not less.


you can only do so much to counteract physics. I can shoot 200+ rounds of .38 spl out of my GP100 without to much to worry about, after 50 rounds of .45 acp through my S&W 625, my hands and forearms are sore. Though through the past 4 range sessions, i have been able to shoot longer before noticing the fatigue and i can shoot around 75 rounds. I still have a ways to go because ill be shooting 100-200 rounds per match depending on if im shooting IDPA or USPSA. If your looking to build the stamina to reach 100 rounds you will have to take baby steps and work your way there.

These little guns recoil much differently than their full size counterparts. The birdshead grip on your S&W 36 recoils differently than your LCRx. The angle and size of the grip is partially why. Not to mention the S&W 36 is 70% heavier than the LCRx (6oz) thats huge!
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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby YeeeahSteve » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:20 pm

Ive been wanting a model 60 for some time now. I handle some of the air weight models in .357 and it hurts just thinking about it shooting it.

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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby samuelrp » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:23 pm

On these pocket revolvers grip becomes very important. The cylinder release on my Smith combat magnum has taken the skin of my knuckle off more than once.
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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby ridurall » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:19 pm

If the light weight of the alloy is causing you problems with recoil how about going with something like the S&W 649 Bodyguard. It's a right handly smaller pocket .38 with enough weight to allow for comfortable shooting with +P ammo.

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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby neilbedwell » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:05 pm

Ohio, do you reload? Maybe you should. I always try to keep some practice loads on hand that are somewhat lighter than full bore factory rounds. I've found that my wife really likes to use them for practice so she can "work up" to full factory loads. Practice sessions for her usually start out with a few rounds out of her favorite .22 revolver, then some of my lighter practice loads and finish off with the same ammo she carries. Standing rule in my house - we NEVER, EVER carry "reloads" or "hand loads" for defensive rounds. Only fresh store bought ammo BUT those lighter loads sure make practice much more enjoyable for her (and reloading is a side hobby for me so it gives me a way to test new loads). Last weekend, between the two of us, with two J Frame S&W revolvers, we blasted thru over 100 rounds of ammo with nary a complaint. Something to ponder.

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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby Ohio9 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:20 pm

No I don't do handloading for two reasons:

I'm afraid I might make a faulty bullet that could damage the gun or me.

I don't go target shooting that often, so it would take a long time to get a return on the investment for the thousands of dollars reloading equipment costs.

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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby hkguy » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:28 pm

Ohio9 wrote:No I don't do handloading for two reasons:

I'm afraid I might make a faulty bullet that could damage the gun or me.
This could also happen with factory ammo, there have been many recalls lately

I don't go target shooting that often, so it would take a long time to get a return on the investment for the thousands of dollars reloading equipment costs.



you could get set up to reload with a single stage press for less than $150. Add in another $100 for 1lb of powder (will yield roughly 1750-2000 rounds depending on charge) 1,000 primers, and 250-500 bullets depending on how you buy. Start saving your brass too! So for $250 or less you could be set up to reload up to 500 rounds of .38 spl. If you load 500 rounds you basically break even, load 1000 rounds and your money ahead. In the end, i found that i have not spent less on ammo, i just get to shoot about 2-3 times more for the same amount of money. Figure that factory .38spl ammo runs $20/50 rounds (40 cents per round) on average so 500 rounds cost $200. You come pretty close to breaking even on your first 500. My cost now for my .38 spl reloads is $125 per 1000 rounds (that is powder, primers, and bullets) Ive saved enough brass and im on my 3rd time loading it so i dont factor the cost of it in.

Ive loaded over 10,000 rounds (mostly 9mm & .38spl and im starting to load .45 ACP) and i have had only 3 errors that made it through. 2 of the 3 were .380 cases that made it into the 9mm bucket and 1 .38 spl that got everything but a primer, which i found when loading my speed loaders up in preparation for shooting an IDPA stage.
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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby Ohio9 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:16 am

Interesting. I didn't realize reloading gear was that cheap. I may have to look into this further.

hkguy wrote:This could also happen with factory ammo, there have been many recalls lately



No manufacturing field has a perfect track record. But still, I trust trained professional ammo makers using state of the art equipment more then I trust myself without any professional training on this issue.

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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby Nathan » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:27 am

Ohio9 wrote:No manufacturing field has a perfect track record. But still, I trust trained professional ammo makers using state of the art equipment more then I trust myself without any professional training on this issue.
I can relate. I've seen several double charged loads over my lifetime, and every one was a hand load. In hundreds of thousands of rounds discharged personally and innumerable rounds I've witnessed being discharged, I've never once personally known of a double charged factory load. At least statistically, I'm much better off with factory loads.

That said, the prepper in me knows that I need the skill set and equipment. When I do get into it I will go fully automated or not at all.
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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby Ohio9 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:30 am

what's a double charged load?

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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby randal » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:49 am

Just what it says. Some types of powder won't completely fill the case. If you're not paying attention, it's possible to put two powder charges in the same case. Not good. It's important to develop a set routine when reloading and stick to it. Eliminate any distractions and don't reload when fatigued. Follow the handloading manual exactly and you shouldn't have any problems. It's a great hobby and can make shooting more affordable.

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Re: Snubby revolvers sure do kick

Postby ridurall » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:05 am

A good way to prevent double charge loads is to not use very fast powders like Bulleye. I've never had Bullseye on my bench for that reason. I like a powder that fills a case enough that it will overflow if a double charge happens. That said nothing really beats being careful and paying close attention to what your doing. I don't like my wife yapping at me when I'm reloading.

Something that Ted mentioned about not shooting a whole lot at a given time. When I'm shooting with my 13 year old son there comes a time when his accuracy starts to drop off. It's time to quit right then. Sometimes it might be too much recoil or him just getting tired but a break is called for. I also occasionally don't put a round in the chamber to watch him to see if he flinches. If he does I switch him back to a .22 to give him confidence and get past any flinch.


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