A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Holster options and comparisons.
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Nathan
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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Nathan » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:48 pm

Ohio9 wrote:there was no visible damage to any of the parts.

Worn springs won't look any different from new springs.


If Glocks are so wonderfully reliable, shouldn't it have been able to handle a large round count and whatever "abuse" the prior user put it through? (At least short of deliberately trying to destroy it?)

You cannot say that it didn't do just that for years before you got it.


I didn't say it met my ideal standards. I just said it was the most reliable semi-auto pistol I've ever owned.

And for you own good, I'm telling you not to accept this as any sense of accomplishment. Raise your standards. Buy your own new Glock and go from there. Glock sells more guns to law enforcement than all other brands combined. Let that sink in a minute. More than all other brands combined. If that isn't an indication of overall performance, I don't know what would ever be.


That being said, I don't consider a low single digit amount of stoppages after firing several thousand rounds to be an "absolute failure"

By "few" thousand I estimate 3,000 rounds. At three failures within that range I would sell the gun, or at least make it a dedicated range gun. Any gun can develop an issue, I get that. If you develop an issue and repair the issue and then can't get 1000 rounds out of it without a failure it's just not fit for carry in my opinion.


I'm just going by what I have experienced, not what I want to experience

I understand. I hope it exceeds what your previous XD did. If it doesn't, pick up a Glock 19 and never look back.


I always test fire every gun before purchase, but it's impractical to test it with thousands of rounds

I agree completely. I used to recommend a minimum of 500 trouble free rounds through a gun before deeming it fit for carry. With the cost of ammunition being so high I realize this is no longer practical. It's still advisable, but not everyone can do it. I would still strongly recommend at least 200 rounds of carry ammunition through the gun prior to relying on it for carry.
Now that said, I make two exceptions. Glock and HK. I'll take either out of the box and shove it in my holster. I still prefer proper break in, but push come to shove I wouldn't hesitate to trust either out of the box based on statistical infallible reliability inherent with both brands.
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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Hand and Steel » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:31 pm

Nathan wrote:Surely you don't actually believe that Bladetech or any off the shelf holster is truly comparable to custom leather?

It wasn't off the shelf. It was one of their custom made holsters, and convinced me not to invest any more in their products. It looked nice, but that's about the best thing I can say about it.

Nathan wrote:If you've never picked up a P30 or a VP9, do so. The gun becomes a natural extension of your hand. The ergonomics of the P30 exceed that of (...are you ready for this?) even the 1911 because it is so customizable to your hand. You can select the back straps and even the side panels and mix and match as necessary to fit your hand and it does so like nothing else I've held.

They feel good, but to me (subjectively) the balance just isn't right. In a full size pistol, the only non-steel frame gun that I have ever found to balance "right" is the Beretta 92 and its clones. I suspect it has to do with the way the slide mass is so much heavier at the back. Steel just seems to balance better in my experience. Personally I also like steel because it makes a great impact weapon and has other uses, like breaking a window to pull someone out of a burning or sinking car. Others may feel differently. If there was only one right way, then we wouldn't have the vast variety of truly effective sidearms that are available today.
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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Ohio9 » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:58 pm

Nathan wrote:You cannot say that it didn't do just that for years before you got it.


Well yeah, I also can't say evil spirits haven't possessed it and caused it to have stoppages. The point is that it didn't perform well, and the notion that the prior user deliberately tried to mess it up seems unlikely.

Nathan wrote:And for you own good, I'm telling you not to accept this as any sense of accomplishment.


I didn't say it was an accomplishment. I said the XD was the most reliable pistol I've ever owned as a statement of fact, not achievement or boastfulness

Nathan wrote:Raise your standards.


Again, I am talking about how my guns have performed, not how I want them to perform.

Nathan wrote:By "few" thousand I estimate 3,000 rounds. At three failures within that range I would sell the gun, or at least make it a dedicated range gun.


I don't think I've averaged one failure per thousand rounds with my XD, though I have not been keeping formal track. I just know I've had a few of them in the 8 years I've owned the gun.

For me it's not so simple. When I get a gun and it works great, and I pour tons of addition money into it for holsters, magazines, and possible add-ons (A lot of my carry guns have laser or night sights), I can't just decide to junk it because I get a single stoppage at random totally out of the blue.

What if the same thing happens with the next gun I get? And the next one? There is no way to predict such things.

Nathan wrote:Any gun can develop an issue


A single stoppage amid thousands of rounds of firing is not necessarily evidence of something wrong with the gun.

Nathan wrote: Buy your own new Glock.


I may get a Glock eventually, but so far XDs have just suited me better in terms of overall performance. For examples, when deciding between an XDS and Glock 43, both guns performed equally in terms of reliability (no stoppages), but the XDS was superior in accuracy and ammo capacity

And as I said before, my prior experience with a glock has shown me that they are not infallible, though I am open to the possibility that was a one-gun issue.

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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Nathan » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:31 am

Ohio9 wrote:the notion that the prior user deliberately tried to mess it up seems unlikely.

I'm not suggesting that the user deliberately tried to mess it up. Neglect and abuse aren't always intentional. There is very little money in private security for owners or employees. It's quite easy to see how gun maintenance wouldn't be a high priority while trying to remain profitable in a field that requires no real skill-set.


I can't just decide to junk it because I get a single stoppage at random totally out of the blue.

A bit of an exaggeration, there. Nobody is saying to throw it out over a single stoppage that can happen with just about anything. Three failures in 3,000 rounds however is unacceptable to me.


What if the same thing happens with the next gun I get? And the next one?

Hopefully by then you will quit screwing around and just buy a Glock. :D


A single stoppage amid thousands of rounds of firing is not necessarily evidence of something wrong with the gun.

Again, I'm not referencing a single stoppage.


so far XDs have just suited me better in terms of overall performance.

The XD is a fine gun that should give you Glock-like performance.

...that the term "Glock-like performance" even exists is also quite telling. That Glock sets the standard by which others are judged is a pretty good indication of Glock reliability.


my prior experience with a glock has shown me that they are not infallible, though I am open to the possibility that was a one-gun issue.

...it was a one-gun issue.


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The recent torture test of the HK P30 is another fine example of what is possible. Perhaps my standards of performance are just too high, but if I'm ever forced to pull the trigger, the damn thing had better work.
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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Ohio9 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:09 am

Nathan wrote:I'm not suggesting that the user deliberately tried to mess it up. Neglect and abuse aren't always intentional. There is very little money in private security for owners or employees. It's quite easy to see how gun maintenance wouldn't be a high priority while trying to remain profitable in a field that requires no real skill-set.


Well actually I carried the Glock as required by our contract to guard a federal facility, which paid pretty well. That was why I was carrying the company gun. Before the company got that contract, I carried my own pistol (a Beretta M9) at other job sites.

I don't know what the maintenence requirements were, but I just feel it's unlikely that the Glock was so badly neglected before my use as to cause stoppages. After all, you said you had a Glock that you have been deliberately neglecting and it still works fine.

Nathan wrote: Three failures in 3,000 rounds however is unacceptable to me.


Like I said, I don't what my exact rate of "failures per thousand rounds" is for any of my guns. I've never kept that close of a track.

Nathan wrote:..that the term "Glock-like performance" even exists is also quite telling.


It exists becuase you just said it :

Anyway I am well aware of Glock's wonderful reputation. All I'm saying is my personal experience wasn't up to par. I probably will get one eventually (Probably a 19, 26, or 43) though, if for no other reason then to say "I told you so" when I experience my first stoppage. ;)

Nathan wrote:The recent torture test of the HK P30 is another fine example of what is possible. Perhaps my standards of performance are just too high, but if I'm ever forced to pull the trigger, the damn thing had better work.


Does that HK have a heavy DA trigger for the first shot? I'm not a big fan of those.

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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Nathan » Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:34 am

Ohio9 wrote:It exists becuase you just said it :

No; I've seen it published countless times in gun mags. I just bet that you have, too.


Does that HK have a heavy DA trigger for the first shot? I'm not a big fan of those.

Yes; the first shot DA trigger is it's only downfall but I share the same criticism of all DA triggers. The good news however is that the same gun is available with a SA trigger. The VP9/VP40 is the same gun as the P30, except with an internal striker and single action trigger pull on every shot. Mine have so far proven flawless as well but I've only a few hundred rounds through them.
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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Ohio9 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:46 am

Interesting. I had never heard of the VP9/40. May have to check that out some time.

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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Nathan » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:06 pm

Ohio9 wrote:Interesting. I had never heard of the VP9/40. May have to check that out some time.


vp9p30.jpg
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As stated, the VP9 / VP40 is essentially the P30 with an internal striker and consistent single action trigger like the XD except with a prominent reset like the Glock. If the trigger travel were just a little bit shorter it would end my internal argument about carrying an HK or a Glock. It's dang near perfect, and the ergonomics are absolutely perfect. I highly recommend the LE version. The civilian version (<$600) comes with the stupid glow in the dark sights and two magazines. The LE version (<$700) comes with tritium night sights and three magazines.

I got lucky a few months back and found a sequential pair of VP9s on gunbroker. I'm currently considering the LE version in .40 to add to my carry options. Buds has it for $653. http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... %283%2913R

See http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/peop ... p9-review/ for an article about it.
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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Nathan » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:56 pm

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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Ohio9 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:03 pm

Seems a bit big for edc though. Do they make a subcompact version?

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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Nathan » Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:18 pm

They don't but I find it quite prefectly sized for carry as a compact. Slightly larger than a G19, slightly smaller than a G17. I'll post a picture comparing them when I get back home.
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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Ohio9 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:17 pm

Nathan wrote:They don't but I find it quite prefectly sized for carry as a compact. Slightly larger than a G19, slightly smaller than a G17. I'll post a picture comparing them when I get back home.


I tend to prefer subcompacts for every day carry. I've never had a larger gun as an EDC on a constant basis.

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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Nathan » Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:47 pm

Ohio9 wrote:I tend to prefer subcompacts for every day carry. I've never had a larger gun as an EDC on a constant basis.

I'm the opposite; I'll carry a sub-compact as my primary carry only if there is no other way. If I'm working in an administrative role I carry a service size gun (Glock 17, for example) in the winter and a compact (Glock 19) in the summer, both with a J-Frame .357 Magnum in my front pocket. If I'm working in a physical role where I'm crawling around in equipment and cannot risk being exposed, I just carry the J-Frame .357 Magnum in my front pocket and call it good. If I'm ever forced to employ my weapon I will be shooting for my very life and if it comes to that, I hope that I'm not depending on a sub-compact.


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As promised, here is a picture of my G19, Vp9 and G17, for comparison.
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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby hkguy » Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:58 pm

They just released teh P30sk and i would think that a VP9sk is on the horizon

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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Nathan » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:04 pm

hkguy wrote:They just released teh P30sk and i would think that a VP9sk is on the horizon

Yeah...they're gonna just keep on with this shit until they break me! :D

...are both these yours?
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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Hand and Steel » Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:33 am

Ohio9 wrote:Well yeah, I also can't say evil spirits haven't possessed it and caused it to have stoppages.


Sir, you have just made my day with that one. :D
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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Ohio9 » Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:40 pm

Nathan wrote:I'm the opposite; I'll carry a sub-compact as my primary carry only if there is no other way. If I'm working in an administrative role I carry a service size gun (Glock 17, for example) in the winter and a compact (Glock 19) in the summer, both with a J-Frame .357 Magnum in my front pocket. If I'm working in a physical role where I'm crawling around in equipment and cannot risk being exposed, I just carry the J-Frame .357 Magnum in my front pocket and call it good. If I'm ever forced to employ my weapon I will be shooting for my very life and if it comes to that, I hope that I'm not depending on a sub-compact.


I have no qualms about trusting my life to a subcompact. Every year when I qualify with my department issued service pistol (Full size XD40), I have to qualify with my private EDC guns as well. And every year I managed to qualify with them on a course meant for a service pistol, with nearly identical scores as my duty weapon (even though my XDS takes more time because it requires more reloads). Modern subcompact guns can be highly accurate.

Do you own a Glock 26? If so I'd like to know if there are any significant accuracy differences between that and the 19.

Also modern subcompacts have decent ammo capacity. My subcompact XD9 holds a whopping 13 rounds in a standard mag (which is actually more then my service pistol holds!) That's not even taking into account the extended 16-round mag i keep in my pocket. The XDS holds significantly less, being a single stack, but still a good amount for a gun of its size (7 rounds). And the extended mags (9 rounds) are thin enough for me to carry two of them.

I've carried my duty weapon as a CCW gun before. It worked, but it was really uncomfortable and I switched to a subcompact as soon as possible. A compact would be more managable, but I think i'd still prefer a subcompact overall.

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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby hkguy » Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:27 am

Nathan wrote:
hkguy wrote:They just released teh P30sk and i would think that a VP9sk is on the horizon

Yeah...they're gonna just keep on with this shit until they break me! :D

...are both these yours?



No unfortunately.

How did you not know about the P30sk?!? it's been out since February or march of this year. the street price of the P30sk should be in the VP9 ball park too.

I really want to get a USP 9 Expert though!
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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Nathan » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:56 am

Ohio9 wrote:I have no qualms about trusting my life to a subcompact.

I will only if I have to; if no other options are available to me at that time. I would very much prefer however, 16 rounds of 147 grain JHP 9mm in my Glock 19 over 5 rounds of 180 grain SJHP .357 Magnum in my J-Frame. Not only is the capacity more than 3X as much, but with my Glock 19 I'm quite confident past 100 yards compared to maybe 3 feet with my J-Frame. :o :D
Better than my G19 is my G17, but concealing a service size weapon can be challenging at times.
Everything about carry is a compromise. From http://CarryGuide.com:

"The first thing to learn (which will be demonstrated later) is that in regards to concealed carry, everything is a compromise. You sacrifice caliber for capacity or overall size, features for cost, sight radius for concealability, etc. Get used to this concept now as it will be a factor in every decision you make from this point."


Modern subcompact guns can be highly accurate.

I agree you can find perfectly acceptable combat accuracy in many modern sub-compact guns if you can find one that fits. That said, I've never found one that I shoot with authority equal to that of the compact versions and especially not the service versions.


Do you own a Glock 26? If so I'd like to know if there are any significant accuracy differences between that and the 19.

I sold my G26 because I really didn't see the point in it. I mean, I never found an instance where I could conceal a 26 but not a 19. To be honest, I consider the 26/27/33 to be the pointless Glock. There just isn't enough size difference between the 26 and the 19 to make it worth it, and I don't like a dangling pinky finger anyway.
Personally I find significant difference in accuracy at longer ranges but this is likely due to that I'm really uncomfortable with a dangling pinky. At typical handgun combat ranges (20-60 feet) I have no considerable difference in accuracy. It's all going to be relative to the shooter.

I have found one sub-compact that I would consider for primary carry; I'm nearly surgical with my 9mm Springfield EMP. I just have a natural shooting ability with 1911s and variants, most likely due to the excellent trigger and ergonomics. I don't carry it as a primary due to its capacity. It's too big to pocket carry and if I can't pocket carry there is no real advantage to carrying it over a G19 with more than twice the capacity.
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Re: A lefty needs a good shoulder holster

Postby Ohio9 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:14 am

Nathan wrote:. Not only is the capacity more than 3X as much, but with my Glock 19 I'm quite confident past 100 yards compared to maybe 3 feet with my J-Frame. :o :D
Better than my G19 is my G17, but concealing a service size weapon can be challenging at times.
Everything about carry is a compromise. From http://CarryGuide.com:


I agree, but I don't think the compromise between subcompact and compact has to be significant. As I said, I find my Xd subcompact to be highly accurate, and the 13 round standard mags come pretty close to compact or even service size capacity.

My XDS does drop a bit on capacity with 7-round mags, but I figure 8 rounds is still enough for most situations, and I always carry a spare ammo source (spare mags, a backup, or both) if I need more.

Nathan wrote:
I agree you can find perfectly acceptable combat accuracy in many modern sub-compact guns if you can find one that fits. That said, I've never found one that I shoot with authority equal to that of the compact versions and especially not the service versions.


I've found my qualification scores with my full size, subcompact, and XDS XD pistols are similar. Sometimes my XDS score might be a bit lower, but that could be because the qualification match is a timed event, and the XDS requires more reloads due to its lower capacity. Having to shoot faster to compensate for the extra reloads might drive my score down a bit.

Nathan wrote:I sold my G26 because I really didn't see the point in it. I mean, I never found an instance where I could conceal a 26 but not a 19.


For me, the mere ability to conceal a gun isn't the main factor. I have the ability to conceal every handgun I own, including my largest, heaviest, and most bulky one (My Beretta M9). To me a far bigger factor is the ability to do so comfortably. If it's not comfortable, you're either not going to carry the gun, or you are going to be miserable while you are doing so. The M9 is just far too uncomfortable for EDC, at least for me it is. I also find my XD9 subcompact is far more comfortable then my full sized XD40, and the XDS easily out-comforts them both.

Obviously comfort isn't the only factor, or else I'd just carry my LCP. But it is a big part of the equation.

Nathan wrote:There just isn't enough size difference between the 26 and the 19 to make it worth it, and I don't like a dangling pinky finger anyway.
Personally I find significant difference in accuracy at longer ranges but this is likely due to that I'm really uncomfortable with a dangling pinky.


I have very small hands, so this isn't as big of a problem as it is for most people. My pinky doesn't dangle when gripping a Glock 26, or even when gripping a Glock 43. I'm also fine with my XD pistols of each size.

But even if this is an issue. You can easily eliminate the problem with a pearce grip extension.

http://www.pearcegrip.com/

Nathan wrote:I have found one sub-compact that I would consider for primary carry; I'm nearly surgical with my 9mm Springfield EMP.


I have a pipe dream that this will be my first 1911 some day, just as soon as I can force myself to throw away all sense of fiscal responsibility and spend 1,100 dollars on a subcompact 9mm pistol.

Nathan wrote:I don't carry it as a primary due to its capacity.


Is there a certain minimum capacity a gun has to have to be your EDC, regardless of how good everything else about the gun is?


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